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	<title>Comments on: more thoughts on the sins of my ancestors - a response to Skylark</title>
	<atom:link href="http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/</link>
	<description>let's activate something</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Blair</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1116</link>
		<dc:creator>Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 18:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1116</guid>
		<description>The Europeans, of course, were not a single, unified entity. Try thinking of the English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Russians and Portuguese as separate tribes. They competed with Native American tribes that were also carving out territory. For example, once they got horses, the Commanche carved out a vast domain called Comancheria, which extended from the Dakotas to Chihuahua City, about 300 miles south of the Rio Grande. What if these tribes had been the same race as Native Americans, would they be thought of as crueler than the Apache, Sioux or Commanche, or would they have been thought of as simply more powerful.

European colonization put an end to tribal warfare, which was genocidal in nature, throughout the Americas, except in the Amazon Basin. It also eventually ended slavery; the slave trade was brisk among pre-Columbian tribes, including those in North America.

European colonizations ended genocidal tribal warfare and slavery in Africa; both have returned since the Europeans abandoned their colonies.

In India, muslims and hindus coexisted relatively peacefully under British rule, but they began slaughtering each other the moment the British withdrew. The body count estimates for the first few weeks of indenpendence alone range from 500,000 to 1 million.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Europeans, of course, were not a single, unified entity. Try thinking of the English, French, Spanish, Dutch, Russians and Portuguese as separate tribes. They competed with Native American tribes that were also carving out territory. For example, once they got horses, the Commanche carved out a vast domain called Comancheria, which extended from the Dakotas to Chihuahua City, about 300 miles south of the Rio Grande. What if these tribes had been the same race as Native Americans, would they be thought of as crueler than the Apache, Sioux or Commanche, or would they have been thought of as simply more powerful.</p>
<p>European colonization put an end to tribal warfare, which was genocidal in nature, throughout the Americas, except in the Amazon Basin. It also eventually ended slavery; the slave trade was brisk among pre-Columbian tribes, including those in North America.</p>
<p>European colonizations ended genocidal tribal warfare and slavery in Africa; both have returned since the Europeans abandoned their colonies.</p>
<p>In India, muslims and hindus coexisted relatively peacefully under British rule, but they began slaughtering each other the moment the British withdrew. The body count estimates for the first few weeks of indenpendence alone range from 500,000 to 1 million.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Eanes</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1113</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Eanes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1113</guid>
		<description>Blair,

I don't think anyone doubts that societies other than Europeans inflicted genocides upon each other. Still, while your examples of Native Americans killing each other and Inuit tribes killing Scandinavians represent terrible actions, it is not fair to compare them to the horrible genocides and economic domination caused by European empires thoughout the last 400-or-so years. In other words, individual genocidal actions cannot be compared to wholesale clearing and/or subjugation of entire continents. 

That aside, though, the reason we should care about this today is that the current world economic order exists as a result of colonization, and many of this world's conflicts happen for the same reason. Yes, almost all humanity has at one time or another been guilty of genocide, but none had such a direct impact on the way we live today than that of the Europeans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blair,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone doubts that societies other than Europeans inflicted genocides upon each other. Still, while your examples of Native Americans killing each other and Inuit tribes killing Scandinavians represent terrible actions, it is not fair to compare them to the horrible genocides and economic domination caused by European empires thoughout the last 400-or-so years. In other words, individual genocidal actions cannot be compared to wholesale clearing and/or subjugation of entire continents. </p>
<p>That aside, though, the reason we should care about this today is that the current world economic order exists as a result of colonization, and many of this world&#8217;s conflicts happen for the same reason. Yes, almost all humanity has at one time or another been guilty of genocide, but none had such a direct impact on the way we live today than that of the Europeans.</p>
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		<title>By: Blair</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1107</link>
		<dc:creator>Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Apr 2007 21:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1107</guid>
		<description>Genocide is a new word that had no exact definition until 1945 when the United Nations General Assembly defined it as part of Resolution 260 (III):

a)Killing members of the group;
b)Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c)Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d)Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e)Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. 

Under this definition, the European conquest of the Americas and their treatment of Native Americans clearly qualify as genocide, as does the intertribal conflicts of pre-Colombian times. In fact, all of humanity has been guilty of genocide. There are some “small print” exceptions. For example, a nation can intern or move a portion of its population away from its borders if the population cooperates with or aids a hostile neighbor.  Forcibly removing Native American children from reservations and placing them in Indian Boarding Schools probably qualified as an act of genocide. Whether forcing Japanese Americans away from the West Coast during World War II and placing most of them in internment camps was genocide is a closer call.

The UN resolution requires all member nations to provide military forces to stop genocide wherever and whenever it occurs. In practice, this makes UN ambassadors very reluctant to declare that a conflict meets the definition of genocide. During so would obligate the nations they represent to take military action, if necessary, to stop genocide. The result is that the world continues to react to genocide very slowly, as it did during Rwanda, the Balkans and, today, in Dafur, if it reacts at all. 

If the global warming alarmists are right, history is about to offer us an opportunity to learn if humanity has made any moral progression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Genocide is a new word that had no exact definition until 1945 when the United Nations General Assembly defined it as part of Resolution 260 (III):</p>
<p>a)Killing members of the group;<br />
b)Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;<br />
c)Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;<br />
d)Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;<br />
e)Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. </p>
<p>Under this definition, the European conquest of the Americas and their treatment of Native Americans clearly qualify as genocide, as does the intertribal conflicts of pre-Colombian times. In fact, all of humanity has been guilty of genocide. There are some “small print” exceptions. For example, a nation can intern or move a portion of its population away from its borders if the population cooperates with or aids a hostile neighbor.  Forcibly removing Native American children from reservations and placing them in Indian Boarding Schools probably qualified as an act of genocide. Whether forcing Japanese Americans away from the West Coast during World War II and placing most of them in internment camps was genocide is a closer call.</p>
<p>The UN resolution requires all member nations to provide military forces to stop genocide wherever and whenever it occurs. In practice, this makes UN ambassadors very reluctant to declare that a conflict meets the definition of genocide. During so would obligate the nations they represent to take military action, if necessary, to stop genocide. The result is that the world continues to react to genocide very slowly, as it did during Rwanda, the Balkans and, today, in Dafur, if it reacts at all. </p>
<p>If the global warming alarmists are right, history is about to offer us an opportunity to learn if humanity has made any moral progression.</p>
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		<title>By: Skylark</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1098</link>
		<dc:creator>Skylark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 22:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1098</guid>
		<description>Wow, Carl, I'm glad my comments could be so inspiring and prompt such a long, in-depth response!

I hear what you're saying about the attitude of humility. That is certainly the most important thing. I may have jumped straight to "doing" because I see lots of people talking about doing positive things, but little happens besides lips flapping and white people making themselves feel good. I'd rather not spend 50 years thinking and deciding what to do, and then when I'm 73 realize I don't have the energy for it anymore. It sounds like I have a massive project ahead of me for re-learning my history and humbling my heart. 

Thank you for the reminder about our collective responsibility. Actually, there's a reason I focused on my direct lineage. In previous discussions and reading about racial issues, I've gotten the impression that it's appreciated most when someone with a clear link to the atrocities comes and apologizes/offers reparations/etc. I could be wrong on that, so please tell me what you've encountered. 

Since I'm fairly new to this, I've probably jumped on the idea of the Lakotas partly because they're the most "real" to me so far. Once I research more into the history of Ohio and find out where the descendents of those tribes live, my thinking may shift. It'd be more complicated to try and track the Mississippians, Hopewells, Adenas, Iroquois, Miamis, Wyandots, Delawares, Shawnees, Mingos, Ottawas and Eries. (Those are the tribes Wikipedia lists for Ohio.) If I remember right, those groups were all pushed west, so I'd be most likely to find them in Central Plains states. Still, it's like you said. I need to do my research to "confess the iniquity with clarity."

I will check into those books you suggested. Apart from that, what are ways I can start re-orienting my thinking and recognizing the white privilege I have? I may not be male, but I'm still white and straight. White privilege in relation to Native Americans has some differences to white privilege in relation to blacks, mainly because the histories are a little different.

Blair, I don't doubt that all people and cultures have been sinful and oppressive of others. What I keep coming back to is this: Does it stop with me? Am I willing to not just abstain from overt sin but also work toward a better way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Carl, I&#8217;m glad my comments could be so inspiring and prompt such a long, in-depth response!</p>
<p>I hear what you&#8217;re saying about the attitude of humility. That is certainly the most important thing. I may have jumped straight to &#8220;doing&#8221; because I see lots of people talking about doing positive things, but little happens besides lips flapping and white people making themselves feel good. I&#8217;d rather not spend 50 years thinking and deciding what to do, and then when I&#8217;m 73 realize I don&#8217;t have the energy for it anymore. It sounds like I have a massive project ahead of me for re-learning my history and humbling my heart. </p>
<p>Thank you for the reminder about our collective responsibility. Actually, there&#8217;s a reason I focused on my direct lineage. In previous discussions and reading about racial issues, I&#8217;ve gotten the impression that it&#8217;s appreciated most when someone with a clear link to the atrocities comes and apologizes/offers reparations/etc. I could be wrong on that, so please tell me what you&#8217;ve encountered. </p>
<p>Since I&#8217;m fairly new to this, I&#8217;ve probably jumped on the idea of the Lakotas partly because they&#8217;re the most &#8220;real&#8221; to me so far. Once I research more into the history of Ohio and find out where the descendents of those tribes live, my thinking may shift. It&#8217;d be more complicated to try and track the Mississippians, Hopewells, Adenas, Iroquois, Miamis, Wyandots, Delawares, Shawnees, Mingos, Ottawas and Eries. (Those are the tribes Wikipedia lists for Ohio.) If I remember right, those groups were all pushed west, so I&#8217;d be most likely to find them in Central Plains states. Still, it&#8217;s like you said. I need to do my research to &#8220;confess the iniquity with clarity.&#8221;</p>
<p>I will check into those books you suggested. Apart from that, what are ways I can start re-orienting my thinking and recognizing the white privilege I have? I may not be male, but I&#8217;m still white and straight. White privilege in relation to Native Americans has some differences to white privilege in relation to blacks, mainly because the histories are a little different.</p>
<p>Blair, I don&#8217;t doubt that all people and cultures have been sinful and oppressive of others. What I keep coming back to is this: Does it stop with me? Am I willing to not just abstain from overt sin but also work toward a better way?</p>
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		<title>By: Blair</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1097</link>
		<dc:creator>Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1097</guid>
		<description>The European conquest of the Americas certainly fits the modern definition of genocide, but Native American tribes waged genocidal warfare against one another for thousands of years prior to the European discovery of the Americas. The purpose of this warfare was to drive rival tribes from their land, seize their resources, or, when possible, to exterminate them. As a percentage of population, casualties were higher than during the European wars of the 20th century. For example, as the Lakota Sioux migrated from the Great Lakes area to the Black Hills of South Dakota, they pushed other tribes out of their way. Their attack on a fortified Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara village left 400 men, women, and children dead.  By way of comparison, the Sand Creek Massacre, the most infamous atrocity inflicted by whites on Native American, killed 180.  Once they reached the high plains, the Lakota pushed the inhabitants of the Black Hills off their land. (The French, by the way, explored the Black Hills long before the Lakota arrived; the Lakota arrived around 1775, about 40 years ahead of the first white settlement.


Native Americans initiated genocidal campaigns against European long before European launched attacks against Native Americans.  Greenland was uninhabited when Scandinavians settled there around 950, building settlements in the central portion and southern end of the almost continental-size islands. The settles flourish for 200 years, before Native Americans invaded from North American and begin attacking the Scandinavian villages. The Scandinavians’ first indication that the Native Americans had arrived was when they discovered one of their villages burned and its inhabitants murdered. As a few brief but blood battles, the Native Americans and Scandinavians settled down to 200 years of coexistence, each avoiding venturing into the other’s territory, but the Scandinavian population began to decline as the climate cooled. Many of the Scandinavians returned to Europe, and the Scandinavian villages begin to vanish. Once day a merchant ship arrived in Greenland only to discover the Scandinavians had vanished for the last remaining villages. Many historians assume they were killed by the Native Americans. 

The purpose of the UN genocide is stop current or future genocide from happening, not to assign blame for past genocides.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The European conquest of the Americas certainly fits the modern definition of genocide, but Native American tribes waged genocidal warfare against one another for thousands of years prior to the European discovery of the Americas. The purpose of this warfare was to drive rival tribes from their land, seize their resources, or, when possible, to exterminate them. As a percentage of population, casualties were higher than during the European wars of the 20th century. For example, as the Lakota Sioux migrated from the Great Lakes area to the Black Hills of South Dakota, they pushed other tribes out of their way. Their attack on a fortified Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara village left 400 men, women, and children dead.  By way of comparison, the Sand Creek Massacre, the most infamous atrocity inflicted by whites on Native American, killed 180.  Once they reached the high plains, the Lakota pushed the inhabitants of the Black Hills off their land. (The French, by the way, explored the Black Hills long before the Lakota arrived; the Lakota arrived around 1775, about 40 years ahead of the first white settlement.</p>
<p>Native Americans initiated genocidal campaigns against European long before European launched attacks against Native Americans.  Greenland was uninhabited when Scandinavians settled there around 950, building settlements in the central portion and southern end of the almost continental-size islands. The settles flourish for 200 years, before Native Americans invaded from North American and begin attacking the Scandinavian villages. The Scandinavians’ first indication that the Native Americans had arrived was when they discovered one of their villages burned and its inhabitants murdered. As a few brief but blood battles, the Native Americans and Scandinavians settled down to 200 years of coexistence, each avoiding venturing into the other’s territory, but the Scandinavian population began to decline as the climate cooled. Many of the Scandinavians returned to Europe, and the Scandinavian villages begin to vanish. Once day a merchant ship arrived in Greenland only to discover the Scandinavians had vanished for the last remaining villages. Many historians assume they were killed by the Native Americans. </p>
<p>The purpose of the UN genocide is stop current or future genocide from happening, not to assign blame for past genocides.</p>
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		<title>By: Trini</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1095</link>
		<dc:creator>Trini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1095</guid>
		<description>Carl, thank you for your eloquent and carefully worded exposition.  I leave it taking the point that you made ever so clearly, it is not up to those with the burden of guilt to decide what the reparations are, if any can be made.  Guilt sometimes prompts us to do stupid things in pride rather than humility.

I like the idea of extending relationships and hearing both sides.  I know healing comes through forgiveness, but that forgiveness has to be given, not demanded from one side, and reparations might simply be a promise to leave one group of people's in peace.  Let them live their lives.  As in any relationship we also have to recognize that both sides may not be at the same place, one might be ready to unburden their guilt, while the other simply may want to get on with their lives.

Humilty is such a key word here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl, thank you for your eloquent and carefully worded exposition.  I leave it taking the point that you made ever so clearly, it is not up to those with the burden of guilt to decide what the reparations are, if any can be made.  Guilt sometimes prompts us to do stupid things in pride rather than humility.</p>
<p>I like the idea of extending relationships and hearing both sides.  I know healing comes through forgiveness, but that forgiveness has to be given, not demanded from one side, and reparations might simply be a promise to leave one group of people&#8217;s in peace.  Let them live their lives.  As in any relationship we also have to recognize that both sides may not be at the same place, one might be ready to unburden their guilt, while the other simply may want to get on with their lives.</p>
<p>Humilty is such a key word here.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Neely</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1092</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Neely</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Apr 2007 14:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1092</guid>
		<description>I am a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation in Oklahoma. Many of the ancestors of our tribe were on the trail of death march. I appreciate your thoughts on the behalf of your ancestors. Its nice to know someone remembers and recognizes the suffering that went on in this country to Native people. I heard recently their were states thinking of doing proclamtions and saving they were sorry for Slavery. I cant ever remember the government wanting to appologize for the Genocide of Native people all over this continent. But for what it is worth. Thanks.
Justin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation in Oklahoma. Many of the ancestors of our tribe were on the trail of death march. I appreciate your thoughts on the behalf of your ancestors. Its nice to know someone remembers and recognizes the suffering that went on in this country to Native people. I heard recently their were states thinking of doing proclamtions and saving they were sorry for Slavery. I cant ever remember the government wanting to appologize for the Genocide of Native people all over this continent. But for what it is worth. Thanks.<br />
Justin</p>
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		<title>By: carl</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1085</link>
		<dc:creator>carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2007 22:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/02/more-thoughts-on-the-sins-of-my-ancestors-a-response-to-skylark/#comment-1085</guid>
		<description>Heh.  Sorry, Skylark - I just wrote a book here and just realized I didn't even answer your one direct question.  You were looking for sources on the history of the Dakotas.  I don't think I have anything to recommend that would be specific to the region of south-western North Dakota where your grandpa grew up.  If you're looking for history of the region, there are relevant chapters in &lt;em&gt;Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee&lt;/em&gt; (Dee Brown), &lt;em&gt;Blood of the Land&lt;/em&gt; (Rex Weyler), &lt;em&gt;A People's History of the United States&lt;/em&gt; (Howard Zinn) and &lt;em&gt;Black Hills/White Justice&lt;/em&gt; (Edward Lazarus).  It's worth noting that every single one of those is written by a white guy.  That doesn't mean they aren't worth reading, but it isn't the whole perspective.  On the web, you could try &lt;a href="http://www.sacredland.org/historical_sites_pages/black_hills.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;this site for a brief overview&lt;/a&gt;, or go more &lt;a href="http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/black_hills.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;in depth here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh.  Sorry, Skylark - I just wrote a book here and just realized I didn&#8217;t even answer your one direct question.  You were looking for sources on the history of the Dakotas.  I don&#8217;t think I have anything to recommend that would be specific to the region of south-western North Dakota where your grandpa grew up.  If you&#8217;re looking for history of the region, there are relevant chapters in <em>Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee</em> (Dee Brown), <em>Blood of the Land</em> (Rex Weyler), <em>A People&#8217;s History of the United States</em> (Howard Zinn) and <em>Black Hills/White Justice</em> (Edward Lazarus).  It&#8217;s worth noting that every single one of those is written by a white guy.  That doesn&#8217;t mean they aren&#8217;t worth reading, but it isn&#8217;t the whole perspective.  On the web, you could try <a href="http://www.sacredland.org/historical_sites_pages/black_hills.html" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/http://www.sacredland.org/historical_sites_pages/black_hills.html');" rel="nofollow">this site for a brief overview</a>, or go more <a href="http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/black_hills.htm" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/http://www.dlncoalition.org/dln_issues/black_hills.htm');" rel="nofollow">in depth here</a>.</p>
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