Comments on: The “Evil Pharisees” and Other Stereotypes and Caricatures http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/ let's activate something Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:23:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: carl http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1900 carl Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:12:34 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1900 Aside from questions of blog etiquette and trolling, I think Luke is right that there are important points here that deserve better treatment. The Levine article was a very informative read. My (limited) understanding (mostly from my mother, who's a pastor) is that some scholars believe it's likely that Jesus would have even considered himself a Pharisee, and that his condemnations of the Pharisees as recorded in the Gospels are basically an internal critique. Clearly the Gospel writers' take on the Pharisees is a one-sided caricature. Perhaps a more nuanced view of Jesus' relationship to the Pharisees and first-century Judaism could: * place Jesus firmly in the context of the long and remarkable tradition of Jewish prophets, * avoid making unfair blanket statements characterizing first-century Judaism as especially "oppressive and legalistic" (which aspects of it may have been, to about the same degree as religious institutions everywhere and everywhen tend to be) * still observe (without stereotyping or caricaturing) that, inasmuch as Jesus did conflict with the religious authorities of his day, his primary critique seems to have been about moral priorities and definitions of ethical purity. This seems to me to be too central to Jesus' message (and too applicable to the church today) to just let it drop out of the narrative entirely. Aside from questions of blog etiquette and trolling, I think Luke is right that there are important points here that deserve better treatment. The Levine article was a very informative read. My (limited) understanding (mostly from my mother, who’s a pastor) is that some scholars believe it’s likely that Jesus would have even considered himself a Pharisee, and that his condemnations of the Pharisees as recorded in the Gospels are basically an internal critique. Clearly the Gospel writers’ take on the Pharisees is a one-sided caricature.

Perhaps a more nuanced view of Jesus’ relationship to the Pharisees and first-century Judaism could:

* place Jesus firmly in the context of the long and remarkable tradition of Jewish prophets,

* avoid making unfair blanket statements characterizing first-century Judaism as especially “oppressive and legalistic” (which aspects of it may have been, to about the same degree as religious institutions everywhere and everywhen tend to be)

* still observe (without stereotyping or caricaturing) that, inasmuch as Jesus did conflict with the religious authorities of his day, his primary critique seems to have been about moral priorities and definitions of ethical purity. This seems to me to be too central to Jesus’ message (and too applicable to the church today) to just let it drop out of the narrative entirely.

]]> By: Nathan Myers http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1881 Nathan Myers Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:05:53 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1881 edward Christian, You're not Jewish. Quit trolling. Or are you? Your last post had a little phrase; "we Anabaptists." I'm not familiar with the Jewish branch of Anabaptism...maybe you could enlighten us edward Christian,

You’re not Jewish. Quit trolling. Or are you?

Your last post had a little phrase; “we Anabaptists.” I’m not familiar with the Jewish branch of Anabaptism…maybe you could enlighten us

]]> By: folknotions http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1860 folknotions Mon, 04 Jun 2007 18:10:38 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1860 "And let’s be careful about our metaphors. In trying to express one’s belief in Jesus’ message of justice, to say that Jesus spoke out against the oppressive Pharisees is not the same thing as saying that Jesus spoke out against oppression. Might Edward be correct in pointing out that some of our unexamined received notions about Judaism really do prop up a hidden anti-Judaism within the common story of Jesus as told within the church, beginning as children? I think he is." Well said, I think it is important to make the distinction between the group and the oppression. I'm still interested to hear from edward about the recent biblical scholarship re: Pharisees, though the Levine article posted by Katie was a very good read. “And let’s be careful about our metaphors. In trying to express one’s belief in Jesus’ message of justice, to say that Jesus spoke out against the oppressive Pharisees is not the same thing as saying that Jesus spoke out against oppression. Might Edward be correct in pointing out that some of our unexamined received notions about Judaism really do prop up a hidden anti-Judaism within the common story of Jesus as told within the church, beginning as children? I think he is.”

Well said, I think it is important to make the distinction between the group and the oppression. I’m still interested to hear from edward about the recent biblical scholarship re: Pharisees, though the Levine article posted by Katie was a very good read.

]]> By: lukelm http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1857 lukelm Mon, 04 Jun 2007 15:51:24 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1857 I think I get most of what Edward is saying. Our common Sunday-school story about the Pharisees as the purveyors of a dead, legalistic dogmatism must be understood as a caricature, invented in part by the writers of the New Testament, to highlight and illustrate a certain view of Jesus' message and status as a religious reformer. My knowledge on the subject is miniscule and mostly second-hand, but I do remember one conversation with my brother while he was in seminary learning about the real Jewish tradition that the Pharisees belonged to, and while remembering none of the details I recall being struck how it had nothing to do with the common caricature we all know. For Christians we might not even be aware that such assumptions bear any weight on the present, because they seem like a small (and dead, static) detail of our story. But for Jews today the Pharisees are one chapter of their real & living story, and I'd say that we would all do well to accept Edward's assertion that there is something much more interesting and rich in 1st-century Judaism than we even know how to ask about, and since he claims to be familiar with it, approach it with curiosity. And let's be careful about our metaphors. In trying to express one's belief in Jesus' message of justice, to say that Jesus spoke out against the oppressive Pharisees is not the same thing as saying that Jesus spoke out against oppression. Might Edward be correct in pointing out that some of our unexamined received notions about Judaism really do prop up a hidden anti-Judaism within the common story of Jesus as told within the church, beginning as children? I think he is. Edward, if you're still reading this, let's approach it from the most basic ground level. Who do Jews and modern scholars think the Pharisees were, and how did they fit into 1st century Judaism? I really have no idea, and I'm kind of curious. I think I get most of what Edward is saying. Our common Sunday-school story about the Pharisees as the purveyors of a dead, legalistic dogmatism must be understood as a caricature, invented in part by the writers of the New Testament, to highlight and illustrate a certain view of Jesus’ message and status as a religious reformer. My knowledge on the subject is miniscule and mostly second-hand, but I do remember one conversation with my brother while he was in seminary learning about the real Jewish tradition that the Pharisees belonged to, and while remembering none of the details I recall being struck how it had nothing to do with the common caricature we all know.

For Christians we might not even be aware that such assumptions bear any weight on the present, because they seem like a small (and dead, static) detail of our story. But for Jews today the Pharisees are one chapter of their real & living story, and I’d say that we would all do well to accept Edward’s assertion that there is something much more interesting and rich in 1st-century Judaism than we even know how to ask about, and since he claims to be familiar with it, approach it with curiosity.

And let’s be careful about our metaphors. In trying to express one’s belief in Jesus’ message of justice, to say that Jesus spoke out against the oppressive Pharisees is not the same thing as saying that Jesus spoke out against oppression. Might Edward be correct in pointing out that some of our unexamined received notions about Judaism really do prop up a hidden anti-Judaism within the common story of Jesus as told within the church, beginning as children? I think he is.

Edward, if you’re still reading this, let’s approach it from the most basic ground level. Who do Jews and modern scholars think the Pharisees were, and how did they fit into 1st century Judaism? I really have no idea, and I’m kind of curious.

]]> By: Katie http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1856 Katie Mon, 04 Jun 2007 14:34:17 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1856 Just after Edward listed those scholars, I noticed an article by Amy-Jill Levine sitting on my boss's desk. I always find it amazing how that works out and it feels like it happens to me all the time. I borrowed the article, read it, and found it enlightening. While I can't say I've found Edward's arguments as enlightening, his suggestion to check out Levine was helpful and I would suggest anyone who is interested take a look. It is available online at the Christian Century website. <a title="Amy-Jill Levine article" href="http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=2761" rel="nofollow">Misusing Jesus: How the church divorces Jesus from Judaism</a>. Just after Edward listed those scholars, I noticed an article by Amy-Jill Levine sitting on my boss’s desk. I always find it amazing how that works out and it feels like it happens to me all the time. I borrowed the article, read it, and found it enlightening. While I can’t say I’ve found Edward’s arguments as enlightening, his suggestion to check out Levine was helpful and I would suggest anyone who is interested take a look. It is available online at the Christian Century website.

Misusing Jesus: How the church divorces Jesus from Judaism.

]]> By: folknotions http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1853 folknotions Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:33:35 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1853 scratch that last part; edward did provide a list of scholars in another post. <a href="http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/05/28/radical-anabaptism-and-radical-biblical-exegesis/#comment-1813" rel="nofollow">Radical Anabaptism and Radical Biblical Exegesis comment by EC </a> scratch that last part; edward did provide a list of scholars in another post.

Radical Anabaptism and Radical Biblical Exegesis comment by EC 

]]> By: folknotions http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1850 folknotions Mon, 04 Jun 2007 03:14:46 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1850 edward, do you see why I have a hard time taking you seriously when you don't provide an argument? You judged my stance without critiquing it. Where is the intellectual vigor in that? once again, you have not answered the call to properly address anti-judaic comments on the blog. It is one thing to call us anti-semitic. It is another to tell us why. And as carl said above, you are not the professor and I'm not going to go out and "learn more" unless prompted. Forget that you haven't actually argued why Christian depictions of the Pharisees are bigoted - you haven't even provided a list of scholars that you think have something to say on the subject! Please, prove me wrong! edward,

do you see why I have a hard time taking you seriously when you don’t provide an argument? You judged my stance without critiquing it. Where is the intellectual vigor in that?

once again, you have not answered the call to properly address anti-judaic comments on the blog. It is one thing to call us anti-semitic. It is another to tell us why. And as carl said above, you are not the professor and I’m not going to go out and “learn more” unless prompted. Forget that you haven’t actually argued why Christian depictions of the Pharisees are bigoted - you haven’t even provided a list of scholars that you think have something to say on the subject!

Please, prove me wrong!

]]> By: edward christian http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1849 edward christian Mon, 04 Jun 2007 02:17:21 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1849 My dear people, I thought that maybe you would pick it up. I'm Jewish. I must tell you, from my experience, if any other Jews would read here what some of you are saying about Judaism and the Pharisees of the first century as being oppressive and legalistic and alluding to it as hollowed-out, they would be deeply, deeply offended. And it reinforces what Jews have thought for so long about Christians and their attitudes towards us. Do you see why we have a very hard time believing you when you say things like that. I think that whatever you say, any Jewish person who read the descriptions of our forefathers that some of you said here, would call it anti-jewish. I tell you the truth, they would name it as anti-judaism. Finally,I wish all of you would learn more about our religion, our history and our faith. And I have read the sermon of the mount that your rabbi taught you. Bless those who curse you. Shalom, Edward Avram S. My dear people, I thought that maybe you would pick it up. I’m Jewish. I must tell you, from my experience, if any other Jews would read here what some of you are saying about Judaism and the Pharisees of the first century as being oppressive and legalistic and alluding to it as hollowed-out, they would be deeply, deeply offended. And it reinforces what Jews have thought for so long about Christians and their attitudes towards us. Do you see why we have a very hard time believing you when you say things like that. I think that whatever you say, any Jewish person who read the descriptions of our forefathers that some of you said here, would call it anti-jewish. I tell you the truth, they would name it as anti-judaism. Finally,I wish all of you would learn more about our religion, our history and our faith. And I have read the sermon of the mount that your rabbi taught you. Bless those who curse you.

Shalom, Edward Avram S.

]]> By: admin http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1840 admin Sun, 03 Jun 2007 06:31:34 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1840 Edward, please read the <a href="http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/blog-guidelines/" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">YAR Guidelines</a> before contributing any further blog posts or comments. Personal attacks, name calling and belittling comments are not welcome here. If you continue treating people in this way, your author account will be blocked. Edward, please read the YAR Guidelines before contributing any further blog posts or comments. Personal attacks, name calling and belittling comments are not welcome here. If you continue treating people in this way, your author account will be blocked.

]]> By: carl http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1839 carl Sun, 03 Jun 2007 05:02:12 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1839 EC: * Assigned reading lists and blustery admonitions that all the "best scholars" are on your side does not an argument make. * Railing at your readers to "do their homework" without bothering to flesh out anything yourself is not blogging, it's trolling. * Likewise, stuffing your post full of sideways digs at your presumed readers' presumed predilections without setting up a cogent argument yourself is still not blogging. It's still trolling. * Similarly, provoking someone with a post full of ad hominem attacks and then claiming that _they_ are too hot under the collar to have a discussion: guess what that is? Yep, still trolling. * Believe it or not, you are not the professor here. I don't sit around waiting for your homework assignments so I can scurry off and do them. Likewise, I'm not interested in what you plan to lecture on next class period. If you've got something interesting to say (and buried amidst the bluster and silliness, some tidbits in your posts indicate that you might), please say it as coherently as you can manage (you can list all your favorite "best scholars" in the footnotes if it makes you feel better) and we can talk about it. Until then, kindly go start your own blog. EC:

* Assigned reading lists and blustery admonitions that all the “best scholars” are on your side does not an argument make.

* Railing at your readers to “do their homework” without bothering to flesh out anything yourself is not blogging, it’s trolling.

* Likewise, stuffing your post full of sideways digs at your presumed readers’ presumed predilections without setting up a cogent argument yourself is still not blogging. It’s still trolling.

* Similarly, provoking someone with a post full of ad hominem attacks and then claiming that _they_ are too hot under the collar to have a discussion: guess what that is? Yep, still trolling.

* Believe it or not, you are not the professor here. I don’t sit around waiting for your homework assignments so I can scurry off and do them. Likewise, I’m not interested in what you plan to lecture on next class period. If you’ve got something interesting to say (and buried amidst the bluster and silliness, some tidbits in your posts indicate that you might), please say it as coherently as you can manage (you can list all your favorite “best scholars” in the footnotes if it makes you feel better) and we can talk about it. Until then, kindly go start your own blog.

]]> By: edward christian http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1838 edward christian Sun, 03 Jun 2007 03:57:12 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1838 As for the "Elders" who hold court here. Will you shun??? As for the “Elders” who hold court here. Will you shun???

]]> By: edward christian http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1837 edward christian Sun, 03 Jun 2007 03:53:31 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1837 Well done. Again, I did provide a cogent argument, its right under your nose. I provided plenty of information that you can investigate and draw on for your self. Why won't you see it? And why don't you do your homework instead of blathering on about the "oppressive Pharisees". And if you would have taken the time to read my last few sentences, I said I would explain further what the issue was between Jesus and some of the Pharisees. But you were too hot under the collar to pay any notice by that time. Nice? Was Jesus "nice"? Read the Gospels and see if Jesus was "nice". What kind of language did he use? Look at some of the encounters he had with various and sundry individuals. "Harsh" might be a better word. His rudeness comes through more than once. He attacks his opponents...his family,...goodness gracious...even Gentiles (dog???) -- come on. He even uses violence and strong arm tactics as he muscles his way through the Temple. Now thats just "Not Fair!" He's not playing by the rules. I will present to you a "cogent" answer about why I think, following the best studies available, the Pharisees were not oppressive and legalistic. And what was the real issue between Jesus and the Pharisees pertaining to purity and holiness codes. Again, read, ask around, do your homework. If you think I'm wrong then go out and investigate the matter, and do the hard work, don't just assume or swallow what some Christians have said. I will discuss some of this when you cool down. There's nothing like a donnybrook, to get the blood going. Pacifism? Please don't do violence to Jesus. Well done. Again, I did provide a cogent argument, its right under your nose. I provided plenty of information that you can investigate and draw on for your self. Why won’t you see it? And why don’t you do your homework instead of blathering on about the “oppressive Pharisees”. And if you would have taken the time to read my last few sentences, I said I would explain further what the issue was between Jesus and some of the Pharisees. But you were too hot under the collar to pay any notice by that time. Nice? Was Jesus “nice”? Read the Gospels and see if Jesus was “nice”. What kind of language did he use? Look at some of the encounters he had with various and sundry individuals. “Harsh” might be a better word. His rudeness comes through more than once. He attacks his opponents…his family,…goodness gracious…even Gentiles (dog???) — come on. He even uses violence and strong arm tactics as he muscles his way through the Temple. Now thats just “Not Fair!” He’s not playing by the rules. I will present to you a “cogent” answer about why I think, following the best studies available, the Pharisees were not oppressive and legalistic. And what was the real issue between Jesus and the Pharisees pertaining to purity and holiness codes. Again, read, ask around, do your homework. If you think I’m wrong then go out and investigate the matter, and do the hard work, don’t just assume or swallow what some Christians have said. I will discuss some of this when you cool down. There’s nothing like a donnybrook, to get the blood going. Pacifism? Please don’t do violence to Jesus.

]]> By: folknotions http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1833 folknotions Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:51:03 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/06/02/the-evil-pharisees-and-other-stereotypes-and-caricatures/#comment-1833 edward, Rather than personally attacking me with charges of antisemitism ("Volknotions") without knowing anything about me and making entirely inappropriate assumptions about what I do and do not read (I don't read any liberation theology), how about you actually provide a cogent argument for why my interpretation isn't correct. your post here is nothing more than an unprovoked personal attack on me and if you read the rules of this blog you will see that it is uncalled for. edward,

Rather than personally attacking me with charges of antisemitism (”Volknotions”) without knowing anything about me and making entirely inappropriate assumptions about what I do and do not read (I don’t read any liberation theology), how about you actually provide a cogent argument for why my interpretation isn’t correct. your post here is nothing more than an unprovoked personal attack on me and if you read the rules of this blog you will see that it is uncalled for.

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