Actually, I am saying that a community is formed BECAUSE of the ideas in it, and some ideas are not compatable, while others are. As you said, the KKK is a coherent, and wrong, community, but it cannot exist with the Jewish Defamation League, because the ideas within each are not compatable. These are obvious examples. But what about a part of a community which believes that Jesus says war is always wrong, and another part of the same community that believes that war can be justified in some cases. Can such a community continue to exist? What about a church that has two or more very different ways of understanding how the Bible is significant? Both of these senarios is the Mennonite church right now. Can it truly be a community like this?

Steve K

How do we deal with a situation where one person/group’s truth requires the imposition of that truth on others? Especially when that person/group has the power and privilege to actually impose that on others? It’s no longer two people climbing the same mountain by different paths. It is one person going around to the other side of the mountain to kick the other person off the mountain because he/she doesn’t want the other person on “their” mountain, especially if they can’t even take the “right” path up the mountain.

I personally can relate more with the idea of truth of the Messianic Jews Hootsbuddy referred to. I’d prefer we all choose our path up the mountain (some of us may even take pretty similar paths and sometimes paths cross and overlap) and agree not to kick each other off the mountain as we all climb it together (or apart). When we get to the top, we can compare notes to see if some paths worked better than others.

Brethren singer Joseph Helfrich was giving a concert at Manchester College a couple years ago, and he said something that will always stick with me: “When we reach the end, and we finally go before God, we will see all the things we claimed He is that He isn’t, and all the things He is that we never imagined.”

I take it as an encouraging thought.

Years ago I realized I had serious doubts abour popular notions of the nature of God. More specifically, I cannot really imagine that decisions we make in the first microseconds of our existence (this mortal journey…the start of an existence believed to be eternal) will mark us as forever destined for either Heaven or Hell.

The danger is not whether or not we are correct, but whether we allow beliefs to excuse us from bad behavior, or worse, loss of doubt which leads to ignorance and selfishness. When we stop asking questions we also stop growing and learning.

I like what Messianic Jews sometimes say about Jesus: We can wait for Him together, and when He gets here we will ask Him if He’s been here before.

Can you elaborate a bit more on the idea that the more important question is “What truth forms a coherent community?”

I guess my discomfort with that, if I understand you correctly, is that the community is not more important than the ideas and foundations of that community. Community for communities sake does not affirm the ideas that bring that community together. The KKK is a strong community- but they are wrong, racist, oppressive bigots. The Catholic workers are a strong community- and its built on the ideas of love and servive.

I’m reminded of Bonhoffer who says “those who love community destroy community, those who love people build community.”

Then again maybe thats not what you are saying…

I think its a good idea to discover truth in this, but, unfortunatly, we can’t agree on the means in which Jesus is discovered. So we do the best we can with the most reasonable way to approch it.

This is why a basic approach to peace in disagreement is so important. We will never acheive any kind of unity unless we have an agreement to disagree on some things, even if they are important.

The most significant question for me is not, “What is truth”, but, “What truth forms a coherent community?” Can we have a coherent community if we have one person who says that brown is black and another that says that red is black? Can we have a coherent community between those that welcome a marginalized group while another rejects a marginalized group? I don’t think so. And if we can’t have a coherent group, even if we believe in the same Lord, how do we relate to each other?

So many questions….

STeve K

That’s definitely something I wrestle with a lot. I studied anthropology and missiology- and I always felt the tension of wondering how one group of people could be more right than another. I mean this world is pretty shitty and beautiful, and well we’re all just trying to make it aren’t we? And for God’s sake, if we say the wrong prayer or are born in the wrong country does that mean we’re going to hell? And all those people who never heard about Jesus- do they go to hell? And babies? And people who rejected Jesus because they’ve seen Christians rape, molest, and kill in his name- are they all going to hell?

Well I don’t believe in hell. I can’t reconcile hell with a loving God. More so, I think if God sent Jesus to save humanity from brokeness- it would be pretty lame if he didn’t succeed. And to think that the grace of God is outside the reach of anyone- would mean God is not too impressive of a God. As my friend Shane says, ‘if the grace of God is outside the reach of a terrorist, I’d have to rip out half my new testament since Paul was just that.’

And so no, I personally don’t think anyone is going to hell- not conservatives, not liberals, none that fall between. Not babies, not terrorists, not George Bush (well…jk), not you, not me, not anyone. Not because we are good, but because no matter how hard we try we cannot escape the love and grace of God.

I do still think that we can attain some truth, and that some people are more right than others. I believe strongly that Christians who kill are wrong, and that Muslims who kill are wrong too, and that the Hindu caste system is shit, and that George Bush is a moron.

So I guess if there is any difference in our thinking (I’m not sure if there is or not- since I don’t feel very comfortable talking about truth or eternity) it would be that I don’t believe any one is going to hell- not because we are all sort of right- but because we are all so terribly wrong- and are running around the world trying to make some sense of it like chickens with our heads cut off.

And well, as for Christianity? Well I personally think its good to be Christian- and that if the church could manage to give the world the real Jesus- the Jesus of peace, love, justice, and reconciliation. The Jesus who works for the restoration of the world, and invites us to enter a new story and a new reality. The Jesus who gives hope to the world. Well thats good, and we shouldn’t be shy to give that to the world. The gospel is good news not bad- so if we ever engage in inviting people to “become Christian” I think are first sentence should be- I don’t think youre going to hell. And well if there is no hell why should we be Christian- well because its good to be. It gives me hope.

Is it just opium for the masses, a crutch for weakminded people? Well maybe, but I could use some opium considering the current state of the world. As Stanely Haurewas says, “I’m a Christian because its the best damn story around.”

A bit of a rant I suppose. Sorry for the length.