Comments on: Re-joining the Roman Catholic Church http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/ let's activate something Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:56:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Spencer http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2976 Spencer Sat, 18 Aug 2007 20:03:08 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2976 As a Catholic, I can't speak to the specifically inner-Mennonite issues, but I can answer your specifically Catholic questions. 1) Catholic dogma (in Vatican councils 1 & 2) declared that the Pope is infallible (incapable of erring) when making definitive dogmatic pronouncements under very specific conditions. First, he has to be making a declaration about Christian faith or morals. Second, he has to declare it as universal pastor of the whole Church. Third, he has to to be doing it in virtue of his Petrine office (not just bishop of Rome or Patriarch of the West, for example). Canon law says that he has to make it clear when he is invoking this gift of infallibility. In other words, the Pope is infallible under very specific conditions, and not all the time. Vatican II did say, however, that Catholics owe a certain amount of respectful obedience to the Pope (and their own bishop) even when he is not speaking infallibly. 2) The Tridentine Mass, for those who love it, is about participation in the Mass of an equal kind by both priest and laity. Folks who dig the Tridentine Mass tend to think of the priest facing in the same direction as the faithful, rather than away from them. For these folks, the Tridentine Mass actually relativizes the importance of the priest in a way. As a Catholic, I can’t speak to the specifically inner-Mennonite issues, but I can answer your specifically Catholic questions.
1) Catholic dogma (in Vatican councils 1 & 2) declared that the Pope is infallible (incapable of erring) when making definitive dogmatic pronouncements under very specific conditions. First, he has to be making a declaration about Christian faith or morals. Second, he has to declare it as universal pastor of the whole Church. Third, he has to to be doing it in virtue of his Petrine office (not just bishop of Rome or Patriarch of the West, for example). Canon law says that he has to make it clear when he is invoking this gift of infallibility. In other words, the Pope is infallible under very specific conditions, and not all the time. Vatican II did say, however, that Catholics owe a certain amount of respectful obedience to the Pope (and their own bishop) even when he is not speaking infallibly.
2) The Tridentine Mass, for those who love it, is about participation in the Mass of an equal kind by both priest and laity. Folks who dig the Tridentine Mass tend to think of the priest facing in the same direction as the faithful, rather than away from them. For these folks, the Tridentine Mass actually relativizes the importance of the priest in a way.

]]> By: Skylark http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2721 Skylark Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:41:55 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2721 I heard a broadcast on NPR a few days ago about the Tridentine Mass and how some Catholics are divided over it. DanL, what's your perspective on variations of Mass? I've heard some people say the Tridentine Mass is more mysterious and reverent, while others complain it's all in Latin, the priest faces away from the congregation, and no one can hear him. It sounded like the Tridentine Mass was less about participation and more about observation. Have you experienced both that mass and a more modern version? I heard a broadcast on NPR a few days ago about the Tridentine Mass and how some Catholics are divided over it. DanL, what’s your perspective on variations of Mass? I’ve heard some people say the Tridentine Mass is more mysterious and reverent, while others complain it’s all in Latin, the priest faces away from the congregation, and no one can hear him. It sounded like the Tridentine Mass was less about participation and more about observation. Have you experienced both that mass and a more modern version?

]]> By: j alan meyer http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2599 j alan meyer Fri, 20 Jul 2007 01:04:32 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2599 I certainly can't speak for others who have written about re-joining the RCC, but here's what I mean when I say it. While I certainly respect (and somewhat agree with) what DanL is saying, I'm not considering actually joining the RCC, or any other Catholic church. The point is this: As you say, "if we don’t like the idea of dividing over differences of belief and/or practice," then why aren't we part of one universal catholic church (often symbolized by the RCC)? The Bible is pretty clear about the importance of the unity of the Church, and that there should be no divisions among the believers. So if we don't want to divide, then shouldn't we be able to live with the differences (even those characteristics that you don't like about the RCC) and worship together? Obviously the question is setting up somewhat of a false dichotomy. But it's a good reminder of our temptation to think, "Well, the divisions in the past were necessary, but now we should all be able to embrace diversity and worship together without more splits." What's the middle ground between maintaining the wholeness of the Body of Christ, or dividing and splitting over every little thing? I certainly can’t speak for others who have written about re-joining the RCC, but here’s what I mean when I say it. While I certainly respect (and somewhat agree with) what DanL is saying, I’m not considering actually joining the RCC, or any other Catholic church. The point is this: As you say, “if we don’t like the idea of dividing over differences of belief and/or practice,” then why aren’t we part of one universal catholic church (often symbolized by the RCC)? The Bible is pretty clear about the importance of the unity of the Church, and that there should be no divisions among the believers. So if we don’t want to divide, then shouldn’t we be able to live with the differences (even those characteristics that you don’t like about the RCC) and worship together?

Obviously the question is setting up somewhat of a false dichotomy. But it’s a good reminder of our temptation to think, “Well, the divisions in the past were necessary, but now we should all be able to embrace diversity and worship together without more splits.” What’s the middle ground between maintaining the wholeness of the Body of Christ, or dividing and splitting over every little thing?

]]> By: DanL http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2598 DanL Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:14:59 +0000 http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/07/19/re-joining-the-roman-catholic-church/#comment-2598 Glad to see this post Skylark. I can offer maybe a little bit to the discussion, as I am constantly moving between what the Catholic and Mennonite churches. In my journey in and out of Christianity, I credit the Catholic church with keeping me in the fold. My favorite Christians tend to all be Catholic- Oscar Romero, Mother Teresa, Dorothy Day, Henri Nouwen, Thomas Merton, GK Chesterton (sorta), Gustavo Gutierrez, etc... I think this is the issue. I crave the community and social ethics of the Mennonite church. The emphasis on peace and pot lucks. The hymns, the room for something egalitarian. The move for something less institutional. The emphasis on simplicity and connecting to the land. The suspicion of wealth and power. The emphasis on humility and the upside-down kingdom, etc... But I can't "connect" spiritually in the Mennonite church. I crave liturgy. I crave to be able to use my body in prayer. I crave the Eucharist. I crave the symbolism and art. I crave the room for mysticism and mystery. This has been especially true lately as I feel spiritually dead (I'm not exactly sure what that means). I don't feel any connection to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. When I felt spiritual screwed up before this was ok, because despite whatever I was feeling I could always fall back on the motions of liturgy and eucharist. But I can't find this in the Mennonite church. If the community fails you, and you fail yourself, we are left with nothing but angst and rebellion. So I guess I'm one of those high-church Mennonites. I also sometimes wonder if I'll end up Catholic in the end of all this. The Catholic church is screwed up, but so is the Menno church. And the pews of the Catholic church have significant diversity of race, class, and gender. I've found nothing more beautiful than the African Catholic church. It feels less Roman. Obviously. So yeah I'm a high church Mennonite. Glad to see this post Skylark. I can offer maybe a little bit to the discussion, as I am constantly moving between what the Catholic and Mennonite churches. In my journey in and out of Christianity, I credit the Catholic church with keeping me in the fold. My favorite Christians tend to all be Catholic- Oscar Romero, Mother Teresa, Dorothy Day, Henri Nouwen, Thomas Merton, GK Chesterton (sorta), Gustavo Gutierrez, etc…

I think this is the issue. I crave the community and social ethics of the Mennonite church. The emphasis on peace and pot lucks. The hymns, the room for something egalitarian. The move for something less institutional. The emphasis on simplicity and connecting to the land. The suspicion of wealth and power. The emphasis on humility and the upside-down kingdom, etc…

But I can’t “connect” spiritually in the Mennonite church. I crave liturgy. I crave to be able to use my body in prayer. I crave the Eucharist. I crave the symbolism and art. I crave the room for mysticism and mystery.

This has been especially true lately as I feel spiritually dead (I’m not exactly sure what that means). I don’t feel any connection to God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. When I felt spiritual screwed up before this was ok, because despite whatever I was feeling I could always fall back on the motions of liturgy and eucharist. But I can’t find this in the Mennonite church. If the community fails you, and you fail yourself, we are left with nothing but angst and rebellion.

So I guess I’m one of those high-church Mennonites. I also sometimes wonder if I’ll end up Catholic in the end of all this. The Catholic church is screwed up, but so is the Menno church. And the pews of the Catholic church have significant diversity of race, class, and gender. I’ve found nothing more beautiful than the African Catholic church. It feels less Roman. Obviously.

So yeah I’m a high church Mennonite.

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