Comments on: It’s the economy, stupid.

By: somasoul

somasoul — Mon, 26 May 2008 17:23:08 +0000

“I was referring to ALL children. All children cost more money than they make. All children get hand-outs.”

People realize this. I think they are thinking: “We have poor schools and no universal healthcare for our children, why do these immigrants seem to get stuff out of our system?”

That’s a legit question. Whether it’s true or not is another matter.

“Without actual numbers, how would anyone know whether a group of people are taking out more than they are putting in?”

I think it’s safe to say that Latin Americans appear to be financially lower-class. The lower class doesn’t contribute what they put in. I think it’s safe to say that those who cross borders illegally are nearly universally lower class, thus illegal immigrants are a drain on the middle class. (So are other lower-wage earners but I won’t delve into that right now.)

“The issue does not start where some think it does, with people crossing U.S. borders and overstaying U.S. visas.”

Sure. But that, my friend, is another topic altogether.

By: Skylark

Skylark — Mon, 26 May 2008 04:31:50 +0000

I was referring to ALL children. All children cost more money than they make. All children get hand-outs. (By the way, any guesses on what percentage of undocumented immigrants bring children/have children once in the U.S., compared to the overall population?)

Before someone starts complaining about “my tax money going to so-and-so,” it is wise to research how much undocumented immigrants contribute to the tax base and how much is taken out. Without actual numbers, how would anyone know whether a group of people are taking out more than they are putting in? Whether the money that group puts in is diverted elsewhere… like to Iraq… is something to take up with your Congressional representative.

The collective phrase you may be looking for is “Latin America.”

Someone who has worked 40 years in the U.S. has lived long enough to do a little research into how his/her life has benefited materially by the involvement of the U.S. military, CIA, and U.S.-run companies in Latin America. The issue does not start where some think it does, with people crossing U.S. borders and overstaying U.S. visas. It goes much further back. If someone thinks a banana republic is just a brand name of clothing, I suggest they spend the next 40 years educating themselves.

By: somasoul

somasoul — Sun, 25 May 2008 20:12:11 +0000

Skylark, you’re right about all those things. I was speaking of perceived realities. For instance, in my example Group A says that the South American Immigrants do not pay taxes. This may or may not be true, but it is perceived to be true, and that’s good enough. Likewise, Mexico isn’t in South America but many people perceive it to be (In fact, Mexico is often part of North America now and central America is pretty much non-existant.) Plus we have illegals from everywhere below our southern border and it’s easier to say “South American Immigrants” than Immigrants from North American, Central America, and South America.”

This is all semantics really. Just roll with me a little bit.

And, yes, children also get our tax dollars. This is a complaint. Illegals come here, have kids or bring them, and we school them, house them, WIC them, feed them, medicate them…….all on the government dime. That’s a realistic complaint. A guy who has worked 40 years of his life has the right, in my opinion, to say: “How come these non-taxpaying, non-citizen, non-english speaking people get handouts from me?”

He has a point, has he not? Does it sound like bigoted hatred or does it sound like a reasonable gripe about a system that favors one group over another? (Even if the gripe isn’t real but is perceived then the perception needs to be addressed)

How do we bridge that gap?

By: Skylark

Skylark — Sun, 25 May 2008 04:18:29 +0000

I’m a little confused by this line, somasoul: “Instead we dole out resources to non-taxpayers from taxpayers………then we add in a racial component (South Americans)…”

Who are you saying are the non-taxpayers, and who are the taxpayers? Are you familiar with the ITIN, and do you know how much money is contributed to the IRS by people using ITINs, and how much money is spent within the US by the US government to benefit people who do not pay taxes? And we really should be clear about who the non-taxpayers are, because the vast majority of all children do not pay any taxes, and vast amounts of money is put toward them.

FYI, Mexico and Central America are not part of South America. Just thought I’d clear that up. :)

By: SteveK

SteveK — Thu, 22 May 2008 22:10:26 +0000

I agree that racism is sometimes a non sequitor. Yes, there are still real race issues that need to be dealt with, but if all we see is one issue, then we are not going to get to the full truth of the source– or solution– to any of the complex issues we have.

Yes, economics is certainly an issue. So is blatant prejudice. But, more often than not, what people are complaining about is a difference in culture, in worldview, in how we see reality.

Economics is one issue. Group A wants to maintain a certain lifestyle, while Group B wants to get just a taste of the lifestyle of the other. These two goals cannot both be reached. Since Group A has the power, they want to take the opportunity away from Group B to reach their goals.

But I think that English isn’t a problem with economics, but culture. Group A wants to maintain the culture they grew up with, while some of Group B cannot learn the culture of Group A (and they probably wouldn’t want to even if they could).

This is always the problem of the poor and outcast. They either have to surrender their culture and worldview and overcome their limitations or they will be denied a new and better life.

How is it that we can get Group A and B to talk instead of throwing stones at each other?

Steve K