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	<title>Comments on: Immigration Through the Lens of Anabaptist History</title>
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	<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2008/06/10/immigration-through-the-lens-of-anabaptist-history/</link>
	<description>let's activate something</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Skylark</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2008/06/10/immigration-through-the-lens-of-anabaptist-history/#comment-17467</link>
		<dc:creator>Skylark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/?p=504#comment-17467</guid>
		<description>Nathanael is asking questions that threaten the structure of politics, our assumptions about how the world must be set up. Of course that's going to be too much for a lot of people. Maybe we can nudge people into that direction through discussing how to welcome newcomers to the regions in which we live.

It struck me in a different way, this week, as this evening I'm moving my furniture into a new apartment in a town I've never lived in before. I just got back from five months in Bolivia (and two weeks in Guatemala). Although I'm jobless, few potential landlords doubted I will find a job that can support me. My educational and work history, combined with my familiarity with the area, probably give this impression. I can count on my ethnicity and national background not to count against me here. If I were moving from a country outside the US and/or had a darker-complected appearance... who knows if anyone would have been willing to rent to a person who is currently unemployed?

Taking deep breaths helps me, too, Tom. It's easy for me to get agitated when discussing this issue. I have to remind myself that biting anyone's head off won't change minds or lower defenses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nathanael is asking questions that threaten the structure of politics, our assumptions about how the world must be set up. Of course that&#8217;s going to be too much for a lot of people. Maybe we can nudge people into that direction through discussing how to welcome newcomers to the regions in which we live.</p>
<p>It struck me in a different way, this week, as this evening I&#8217;m moving my furniture into a new apartment in a town I&#8217;ve never lived in before. I just got back from five months in Bolivia (and two weeks in Guatemala). Although I&#8217;m jobless, few potential landlords doubted I will find a job that can support me. My educational and work history, combined with my familiarity with the area, probably give this impression. I can count on my ethnicity and national background not to count against me here. If I were moving from a country outside the US and/or had a darker-complected appearance&#8230; who knows if anyone would have been willing to rent to a person who is currently unemployed?</p>
<p>Taking deep breaths helps me, too, Tom. It&#8217;s easy for me to get agitated when discussing this issue. I have to remind myself that biting anyone&#8217;s head off won&#8217;t change minds or lower defenses.</p>
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		<title>By: tomdunn</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2008/06/10/immigration-through-the-lens-of-anabaptist-history/#comment-17044</link>
		<dc:creator>tomdunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/?p=504#comment-17044</guid>
		<description>My grappling with the above theologies has happened as I have received doses of reality.  As I have thought about what it means to be a Christian, as I have concentrated on how Jesus lived and what he taught, it has slowly dawned on me that it is impossible to have, and there never will be a government that even comes close to taking the words and actions of Jesus seriously.  In a word, I have given up on governments.  As I mentioned earlier, and as Nathaneal talked about, governments look out for themselves at the expense of others.  Christ (and therefore all followers of Christ should) looked out for others at the expense of himself/themselves.  A government that does this will not exist for very long.

You asked how this way of thought informs a response to immigration.  Mostly, it just lowers my expectation of the government, but it doesn’t really change how I live.  I still try to build bridges towards the immigrant community, and do what I can to make them feel at home here.  I get really pissed off when I hear people talk about “building up the wall,” or other things to cleanse America of people that have been labeled illegal, but after I take a couple of deeps breaths I think, “Well, that is a normal response for a government/people that is not seeking to follow Christ….they’re just looking out for their own best interest.”  Although I think this is shameful, I think it is reality, and this reality informs my theology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My grappling with the above theologies has happened as I have received doses of reality.  As I have thought about what it means to be a Christian, as I have concentrated on how Jesus lived and what he taught, it has slowly dawned on me that it is impossible to have, and there never will be a government that even comes close to taking the words and actions of Jesus seriously.  In a word, I have given up on governments.  As I mentioned earlier, and as Nathaneal talked about, governments look out for themselves at the expense of others.  Christ (and therefore all followers of Christ should) looked out for others at the expense of himself/themselves.  A government that does this will not exist for very long.</p>
<p>You asked how this way of thought informs a response to immigration.  Mostly, it just lowers my expectation of the government, but it doesn’t really change how I live.  I still try to build bridges towards the immigrant community, and do what I can to make them feel at home here.  I get really pissed off when I hear people talk about “building up the wall,” or other things to cleanse America of people that have been labeled illegal, but after I take a couple of deeps breaths I think, “Well, that is a normal response for a government/people that is not seeking to follow Christ….they’re just looking out for their own best interest.”  Although I think this is shameful, I think it is reality, and this reality informs my theology.</p>
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		<title>By: Joanna</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2008/06/10/immigration-through-the-lens-of-anabaptist-history/#comment-16972</link>
		<dc:creator>Joanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/?p=504#comment-16972</guid>
		<description>Thanks Nathanael and Tom for your thoughts.  You both raise important questions about how we approach and think about migration in light of the present situation in the United States (and around the world).  

I agree with you Nathanael that in many ways we have let the state define the way we talk about migration.  I had not earlier thought about that fact, so your point is one I will continue to process.  I wonder though, is the way we talk about this issue dependent on our audience?  It seems like on YAR we could have a good discussion about the state's role in defining the debate, yet if we were presenting this to a more rural Mennonite congregation, would they be able to latch on?  In those situations it seems important to decide what message we're trying to communicate.  Are we encouraging/challenging them to be more open to recent "immigrants" in their community or are we trying to explain how the church has allowed the government to dictate how the issue is framed?  Perhaps it is possible to have both discussions, but in most cases it seems like a little much (especially if the issue hasn't been discussed in the past). I acknowledge that I could be taking the easy way out here, so please correct me if this approach seems too cautious.  

Tom, thanks for bringing up the two-kingdom/Lordship of Christ divide.  I grew up with two-kingdom theology  and more recently have been trying to wrap my mind around the Lordship of Christ understanding.  I would be interested to hear more about how you've grappled with these theologies since you and I have moved in opposite directions.  But, more importantly, how would you see the two different theologies informing a response to migration?  Would the approach differ based on one or the other?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Nathanael and Tom for your thoughts.  You both raise important questions about how we approach and think about migration in light of the present situation in the United States (and around the world).  </p>
<p>I agree with you Nathanael that in many ways we have let the state define the way we talk about migration.  I had not earlier thought about that fact, so your point is one I will continue to process.  I wonder though, is the way we talk about this issue dependent on our audience?  It seems like on YAR we could have a good discussion about the state&#8217;s role in defining the debate, yet if we were presenting this to a more rural Mennonite congregation, would they be able to latch on?  In those situations it seems important to decide what message we&#8217;re trying to communicate.  Are we encouraging/challenging them to be more open to recent &#8220;immigrants&#8221; in their community or are we trying to explain how the church has allowed the government to dictate how the issue is framed?  Perhaps it is possible to have both discussions, but in most cases it seems like a little much (especially if the issue hasn&#8217;t been discussed in the past). I acknowledge that I could be taking the easy way out here, so please correct me if this approach seems too cautious.  </p>
<p>Tom, thanks for bringing up the two-kingdom/Lordship of Christ divide.  I grew up with two-kingdom theology  and more recently have been trying to wrap my mind around the Lordship of Christ understanding.  I would be interested to hear more about how you&#8217;ve grappled with these theologies since you and I have moved in opposite directions.  But, more importantly, how would you see the two different theologies informing a response to migration?  Would the approach differ based on one or the other?</p>
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		<title>By: tomdunn</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2008/06/10/immigration-through-the-lens-of-anabaptist-history/#comment-16661</link>
		<dc:creator>tomdunn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/?p=504#comment-16661</guid>
		<description>Great post.  This is just another point that shows how we as Christians should be completely apposed to any type of restrictive immigration laws.  I remember Joe provided &lt;a href="http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/27/we-were-here-first-right/" rel="nofollow"&gt;another perspective&lt;/a&gt; a while back.  

I would be interested in discussing what Nathanael mentioned.  Over the last couple of year I have found myself leaning more towards a two kingdom theology as my cynicism of governments has grown.  Isn't it the role of any government to protect itself, provide for its people, etc.  In so doing, said government/state is inherently going to contradict the message of Jesus.  The state's job is  to look out for #1, the whole job of a follower of Jesus to love the Lord, and look out for others, forsaking yourself in the process.

I went to Bluffton University where the tradition two kingdom theology was looked at as a "has been" and they taught that now everything, even state governments, are under the Lordship of Christ.  I can't argue with the idea, but in practice it seems pretty hopeless to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post.  This is just another point that shows how we as Christians should be completely apposed to any type of restrictive immigration laws.  I remember Joe provided <a href="http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2007/04/27/we-were-here-first-right/"  rel="nofollow">another perspective</a> a while back.  </p>
<p>I would be interested in discussing what Nathanael mentioned.  Over the last couple of year I have found myself leaning more towards a two kingdom theology as my cynicism of governments has grown.  Isn&#8217;t it the role of any government to protect itself, provide for its people, etc.  In so doing, said government/state is inherently going to contradict the message of Jesus.  The state&#8217;s job is  to look out for #1, the whole job of a follower of Jesus to love the Lord, and look out for others, forsaking yourself in the process.</p>
<p>I went to Bluffton University where the tradition two kingdom theology was looked at as a &#8220;has been&#8221; and they taught that now everything, even state governments, are under the Lordship of Christ.  I can&#8217;t argue with the idea, but in practice it seems pretty hopeless to me.</p>
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		<title>By: jurisnaturalist</title>
		<link>http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2008/06/10/immigration-through-the-lens-of-anabaptist-history/#comment-16658</link>
		<dc:creator>jurisnaturalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/?p=504#comment-16658</guid>
		<description>As believers, how can we even use the term immigrant?  To do so recognizes a state's authority to determine arbitrary borders enforced at the point of a gun.  No.  Boundary lines among individuals are legitimate, the result of mutual agreement about what is "mine" or "yours" delineated to reduce transactions costs and generate reasonable incentives structures.  Boundaries between states are battle lines over competing claims to tax people, or conscript them for expansionist purposes.
Migration is a natural phenomenon led by market processes.  Why is it a crime for a worker to migrate from Mexico City to Omaha, but not for one to migrate from Buffalo to Raleigh?  The entire issue is wrongfully framed by legitimizing the state's claim to sovereignty.
Nathanael Snow</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As believers, how can we even use the term immigrant?  To do so recognizes a state&#8217;s authority to determine arbitrary borders enforced at the point of a gun.  No.  Boundary lines among individuals are legitimate, the result of mutual agreement about what is &#8220;mine&#8221; or &#8220;yours&#8221; delineated to reduce transactions costs and generate reasonable incentives structures.  Boundaries between states are battle lines over competing claims to tax people, or conscript them for expansionist purposes.<br />
Migration is a natural phenomenon led by market processes.  Why is it a crime for a worker to migrate from Mexico City to Omaha, but not for one to migrate from Buffalo to Raleigh?  The entire issue is wrongfully framed by legitimizing the state&#8217;s claim to sovereignty.<br />
Nathanael Snow</p>
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