Firstly, who says who is the victim? Old testament law? Modern law? The law of the jungle? Victims can be identified by a variety of cultural and religious norms.

Secondly, if Jesus identifies with the victim, then how can peace be established?

The Jesus I read about sides with no one, but establishes a new law. The victim needs to forgive. The violator needs to make amends.

In the parable of the Ten Virgins half are left without oil. By today’s standards that half might be considered the “victim” (I can hear the screeching now: “They were poor!” “Downtrodden!” “Never had a chance!” “Minorities!” “Paid too many taxes!” Ugh.)

Our world views may clash. Who is the victim? Depends on who you ask.

No, Jesus asks much more of us then simple identifiers like these.

As I said in my earlier post my view on Jesus identifying with victims comes from Rene Girard. A number of years ago I read Violence Unveiled, Humanity at the Crossroads by Gil Bailie. Bailie explains Girard’s main thesis in a much easier to read way then Girard himself. I highly recommend the book (the link above is to a brief review of it).

I did a bit of web browsing just now to see if I could find a quote or two to offer you. I found a chapter by Girard entitled God of the Victims. Here are a few excerpts:

The God of the Gospels is clearly a candidate for the role of the God of victims. The Father sends his Son into the world to defend the victims, the poor, and the disinherited. In the Gospel according to John, Jesus calls both himself and the Holy Ghost a Paraclete. The word signifies advocate for the defense in a law-court

…

Jesus enjoins men to imitate him and seek the glory that comes from God, instead of that which comes from men. He shows them that mimetic rivalries can lead only to murders and death. He reveals the role of the scapegoat mechanism in their own cultural system. He does not even conceal from them that they are dependent on all the collective murders committed “since the beginning of the world,” the generative murders of that same world. He demands that they recognize the sons of Satan, devoted to the same lie as their father, the accuser, “murderer since the beginning.”

Jesus scarcely convinces anyone. His revelation receives just enough acceptance to invite suppression by whose who hear it. By revealing the truth, Jesus threatens the domination of Satan, the accuser, who in turn exerts on him the greater force of the unanimous mimesis of the accusation, the scapegoat mechanism. He becomes, inevitably, the victim of that same satanic force that, as accuser and persecutor, controls the world and has already killed all the prophets from Abel to the last victim mentioned in the Bible

“Jesus’ call to identify ourselves with the victim rather then the victor is unique.”

Can you explain this more?

I still have a problem with the “I refuse to feel guilty” sentiment. For Josh’s sake, lets get rid of the word guilt, and re-word it to say, “I refuse to change my ways.” Is that satisfactory?

No matter how you word it, it reminds me of the way that people of Israel responded to Isaiah, Jeremiah and other prophets who told them they where not where God wanted them to be. Pointing the finger at other societies does not get us off the hook. I’m sure we are better than them in some aspects, and they are better than us in others.

Our job is to critically self exam ourselves and our church, our culture etc. and see how that lines up with the prophetic witness of the scriptures/Jesus/God/Holy Spirit. That seems to be what Isaac is doing with technology.

Should a country that grows a lot of crops question their ability to feed their own soldiers?

Dotted lines all over the place. The question isn’t even worth asking because there is nothing you can do about it.

I don’t know why we have to talk about guilt just yet. I think we moved there way too quickly. Besides, “guilt” is not a concept I’m working with at all. That’s something ya’ll could talk about with your friends and pastors. What I’m interested in is telling the truth. Truthfulness is how I framed my thoughts: “Truthfulness demands that we wrestle…” I want to know the truth and tell the truth. And the truth of the matter seems to be that there is a direct link between this computer that I’m typing on and our country’s ability to procure resources and markets through military might. Is no one else stunned by the quote from Thomas Friedman above!?! He thinks it’s a good thing that Silicon Valley is tied to the Armed Forces. I happen to believe that killing people is a bad idea. But at least he’s telling the truth. Our personal feelings of guilt shouldn’t shield us from looking at the harsh truth.

I guess I look at the guilt thing like this. We could obviously do things much much better. But to suggest that we, because of technology, are somehow worse than those who lack it seems far fetched. The Hutus killed their Tutsie brothers without an overabundance of electronics.

I guess, what I see from the left, is this notion that we are more murderous than those less technology advanced. Or that somehow, in our nature, because of technology the urge to kill is greater. I would disagree wholeheartedly. We have great means to kill, undoubtedly, but so would anyone else in our position.

In fact, one could say that we, in the west, are less murderous than other nations or cultures. I daren’t point out reasons on this forum.

In a less polemical tone, I might say the guilt is our MO as Anabaptist. It is what we use when think someone isn’t trying hard enough, or for that matter living like me. Guilt is also our way into the paralysis that was noted in the main post. If you want to make sure someone doesn’t do something, use guilt to freeze them in their current way of life.

Unfortunately, guilt is not Christian. It has become socialized within our tradition, but ultimatley it is antithetical to any idea of Grace.

So to break out of my Anabaptist Passive Aggressiveness and to risk being considered “violent”: knock of the guilt and cut out the ad hominems!

Could you explain yourself? Why don’t you feel guilty? Is it just because there have been worse cultures (like you named)? Maybe guilt isn’t the right word. When I hear people say “I don’t feel guilty,” or “I wont apologize for…” I hear people saying, “I refuse to admit there is anything wrong with my way of life, and how dare you suggest otherwise!”

I will stop myself here, because I don’t want to get too caught up in my own bias opinion before I hear you respond.

We can still have a nice conversation.

I think it’s pointless to argue whether or not our lifestyle is something to feel guilty about. We live in a great society that has produced some great works of art and science. We are far from perfect. But the idea that we should feel guilty I question. We are no worse than the Islamic slave traders or the 18th century, the Hutus who slaughtered their brethern 10 years ago, or the Myans with their human sacrifice.

I won’t feel guilty about our way of life, even if I think some things are far from perfect.

I never said that a “lack of technology produces” a “blood free” world. Nor did I attempt to imply such things. It would have been more appropriate for you to ask something like, “So, Isaac, do you think that getting rid of technology would solve the world’s problems?” And I would have quickly responded: “No. The powers of sin will always find ways to destroy God’s good creation.” We could have had such a nice conversation…

Fredric Jameson argues that the Postmodern condition is a way of life where we consume without borders or barriers. And we are able to do so because products hide the marks of their production. Because if we knew the destruction that went into their creation, then we would have a really hard time enjoying them. That seems like a problem to me.

Here’s a line from Jameson’s book, Postmodernism, or, The Cultural Logic of Late Capitalism: “a product somehow shuts us out even from a sympathetic participation, by imagination, in its production, It comes before us, no questions asked” (317).

No doubt that mankind’s technological progress forward is stained with blood. But you imply something in your writing, that is that the lack of technology produces is blood free. I would argue that with or without cardoid microphones the human race will still have both reason and ability to commit atrocities against each-other.

Cain didn’t need a superpower to murder his brother.

As is often the case in discussions of War Tax Resistance, we might have to ask what is a real separation from the means of violence (communal living completely off the grid so to speak) and what might be considered a token protest. I am not convinced that this is a real dichotomy, or for that matter a useful distinction, but it does press us to ask how we can subvert the structures we consider violent and antithetical to the Gospel. (My personal take is that complete autonomy is impossible, a sentiment formed by Jesus’ injunction to “render unto Caesar.”)

A more practical element of the discussion might also be the collection of ideas regarding re-use of hard-ware, collection of Open-source programs, and the possibly co-ops for computer sharing and support.

The second, and I think most pertinent to your post, is the way the material of our lives can be used for the subversion of the very violent structures you name. Here I am thinking in terms of De Certeau’s description of tactical practices. In the Practice of Everyday life De Certeau describes the practices of all people which utilize the things around them for their own use rather than use intended by the power structures. The inane example which comes to mind is the use of a work computer for the production of a resume for another job. Here the worker uses what is available for her own means, thus subverting the companies goals. In the case of technology, it seems to me in this light that the use of a computer or screen in the liturgical life of a community is the PRECISE place it should be used. By participating in the liberating practices of worship and the ultimately participating in the Kingdom of God, these material means subvert the culture of death which produced them. What is more, these products of Silicon Valley expand beyond the Church walls and participate in things like this blog, the CPT website, and other means of exchange which can disseminate the very information and critique of these structures of production and violence.

So then I come full circle. It ultimately depends on the use of the technology by us as the People of God. As I said above, the liturgy of the Church is probably the first place this technology should be implemented. By participating in the proclamation of the Reign of God these computers, screens, and projectors can be redeemed from their destructive production.

Great question! I look forward to the conversation.